“Sanderin van der Doef is a psychologist and sexologist, specialising in sexuality education for young children and adolescents. She has had a career in sexuality education for more than 30 years and is the author of several books for children, parents and teachers on sexuality education. Sanderin worked for the Dutch Rutgers - the expertise centre for sexuality education in the Netherlands - for many years, including 15 years in the international department, developing programmes and giving training to local experts in Asia and Africa. Sanderijn is also a counsellor and works with children, parents and adults who experience sexual problems. Sexuality education is the motor that drives Sanderin in her professional life, aiming to give all children and adolescents the opportunity to receive enough knowledge and skills about sexuality to feel confident to enjoy their sexual lives while being respectful to others”

der, D.S. van, Bennett, C. and Lueks, A. (2021) Can I have babies too?: Sexuality and relationships education for children from infancy up to age 11. London: Jessica Kingsley Publishers.

Conversation:

Firstly, how did you get into this field, sexuality education for young people and children?

I'm educated as a psychologist, from the University of Amsterdam. I started my career after graduation as a researcher at the university.

One of the research projects that I did, after a couple of years in the nineties, was a project about HIV education. In the eighties, the HIV epidemic started all over the world and then, at the end of the eighties the education of the Ministry of Education said that it's really necessary to give education in secondary schools, so to young people, about how to prevent HIV infection. They also said that you should start with sexuality education not long before young people start showing and having interest in sexual behaviour and sexual relationships.

So that's why many schools started with education in the nineties on how to prevent HIV infection. At that time, the ministry also wanted to have some kind of evaluation. What were schools doing? Exactly what kind of program did they use? Did they did they develop their their program by themselves? Were the teachers trained? And maybe, also, could we find any impact or effect of the programmes? And that was my first contact with sexuality education. It was actually called HIV education, because it was mainly factual sexuality education focusing on how to prevent HIV. At the same time at that time, I also became an Agony Aunt for a very popular girls magazine here in the Netherlands.

I became very popular at that time because I was the first Agony Aunt in the Netherlands. It was a girl's magazine, called Yes. The magazine was writing for girls between 19 and maybe 25.

But in practice, what is happening is that a younger age group are reading. So it was read mostly by girls between well, maybe already, from 12 years old until 25 years old.

We had something similar in the UK, and I can't remember what it was called. But I remember as a little girl my friends and I would sneak into a corner and read it and we thought we were so cheeky and sneaky reading the little Agony Aunt section of the magazine. And it was aimed at kids as well because it did come with free lip gloss, like sparkly “barbie” type make up appealing to young girls.But I do remember it thinking we were so sneaky.

It is for many girls and also boys. Because I remember, from my own children, that my sons used to read the magazine of my daughter, to read everything that was sex related. Boys were not going to buy magazines for themselves. They just read the magazines from their sisters or girlfriends or whatever.

And this is a very important type of sex education, and now it's less important. But at that time, it was really an important part of sex education. So, yes, I did very important work, and I was also not the only one because it became so popular at that time that the magazine wanted to have a real psychologist because before I came to the magazine they used to have general journalists who were answering the questions, and then they decided 'no this is not right. We really need to have a real psychologist and a real doctor who are going to answer the questions.' So this is what I did for years, I think, for maybe 15 years.

And then after 15 years, the magazine was stopped because magazines are not really popular anymore. But because it became so popular, that part of the magazine with the with the questions of the readers, that they also asked me to write every week in the magazine an article, which was sex related. So I also became a kind of journalist, sex related journalist. Then soon after that it was not only for that magazine, but also other magazines were asking me to write articles or columns about sexuality and also several TV programmes asked me to come to their program and talk about sexuality etc. So this was all in the nineties, and then I started to think, maybe I should learn also more about sexuality, the topic.

Although I'm a psychologist, I also need to know more specifically about sexuality. So I did, in 2000, I started with the post-academic education to become a sexologist, and that is for 4 years. It's one day a week for 4 years, and you have to do an internship. It's quite serious. They also have a high quality screening before you can enter this kind of education.

So they only want academic people, people who are really focusing on sexuality in their work. So in 2004, I finished the education, and then you can become a registered sexologist, and that's what I did. So this is how I started to become a sexologist. When I started in the nineties with HIV research, that was also my last project as a researcher of the university because I wanted to change my job and I was looking for a less academic job, a more practical job in which I could use my new knowledge and information about sexology. That's why I started to work for Rutgers. Rutgers is the the main and most famous centre in the Netherlands around sexuality. So they they have a part of researchers. The main part is education and they have a huge department which is focusing on the Netherlands, on the national part, and that's where I started.

And a smaller part, which is an international department to do projects in Africa and in Asia on sexuality education. So I started in the national department and my children at that time were really young. I have 3 children and they were all at that time under 5 years old. And they were asking me lots of questions about sexuality. They were also playing games with each other, and I thought, oh, well, I'm working now at Rutgers, and they should have material for me or books for me or experts there who could help me with my questions as a parent, and they did not.

They only had material and experts on sexuality education for young people over 12, and not for for parents like me or teachers who also want to do psychology education for young children. So that was really gap in that centre in Rutgers. So that's why I decided, okay, I think I'm not the only parent, and probably there are also many teachers in the Netherlands who are eager to have trainings and to have materials that can help them to do sexuality education for their own children or the children in their school. So that's why I started in the nineties with developing materials for schools and writing books for parents. The main sexuality education program, the most famous and the main program for sexuality education in primary schools, was was developed by me at that time.

Still the majority of the schools are using that one.

You need to bring it to the UK because a lot of us had little to nothing.

It is translated in English. I know that some people, colleagues of mine, have worked together I think it was in maybe in Birmingham. I'm not sure.

They work together with several sexuality education centres and schools. And together with them, they translated the whole program in English. But English experts are quite, how do I call that? Because the same is happening with my books. They are not always very keen to learn, you are maybe an exception.

The program for primary schools is used only in a small part of UK.

I volunteer for a suicide prevention charity for children and young people. And we really struggle with the fact that schools have a very strict system that they don't want to change. That's something I'm struggling with at the moment to help schools with sexuality education. That's why I'm trying to get it more to parents because if it's not taught at school, hopefully we can have it taught at home.

But, I understand that, since a couple of years sexuality education is mandatory, right, in UK?

Yes. To an extent, though, I think the sex education, that myself and my friends have mostly had was just how to get pregnant. It's very biological. I learnt nothing on female orgasms at all. They briefly mentioned to use a condom if you don't want to get pregnant. But that was it. We watched a video on how boobs grow and puberty and they always separated the boys and the girls. Always. In every school I've spoken to with my friends, they separated the boys and the girls and the boys get, “this is how you have sex with a woman” and the girls get “this is how you get pregnant from a man”, also, “your boobs will grow and you're going to bleed from your period”. And that was it.

That's all I got. A lot of which has obviously led to why I'm doing what I'm doing because a lot of people just enter the world and that's not the reality of the world. Sex isn't just procreation and where I grew up there were instances of STIs and unwanted pregnancies and there was nothing going on to prevent that because no one was saying anything and the only other way people were learning, which is one of my questions for you actually, is through porn.

Which is still the case but what we're seeing now is this is the first time that people are watching porn before experiencing anything sexual, whilst not receiving sufficient sexuality education.

Yes. It's not only in the UK. That is a worldwide problem. First of all, I think it's important that you see the the English version of the the Dutch program, called Spring Fever. I mean, until recently, the sexuality education here in the Netherlands was still not saying anything about the female orgasm, although it was much more than the biology content, especially the programmes for primary schools, were really also on social emotional development and focusing on that. That changed only recently, since a couple of years. Did you hear about the week of Spring Fever in the Netherlands?

I've heard about it, but I don't know much about it.

So that is every March. Rutgers is organising a national campaign in the Netherlands for all the primary schools. They want to motivate primary schools to start with sexuality education and then they offer the program. They offer materials, they offer trainings, and they explain how to work together with parents.

It's for one week in March. And last year in March, every school who joined this campaign received a model of the female clitoris to show in primary schools. Also what the female genitals look like and that we always forget to explain and to tell something about female clitoris and to tell something about the female orgasm. So that is quite new and also good.

But, it's also, I really have have to say, schools can choose. I mean, schools were receiving the clitoris and other materials, but schools could decide for themselves if and what they would use when they give sexuality education. If a school was saying, 'well, I want to give sexuality education, but I don't think our children are ready for the female clitoris', then it's okay. It's a school decision, but they have it. They at least have it, and it takes time for people and for schools to come to the conclusion.

This is also necessary to tell to children, and why not? We are also talking about condoms. We are explaining that because of the male orgasm, females can become pregnant. So why not, explaining something about the female orgasm?

Yes. Well, it connects to one of my questions I was going to ask. What are the main parts of sexuality education you feel currently lack in school and home education?

I think nowadays, the sexuality education in primary school, but also in secondary school is quite comprehensive (in the Netherlands). I mean, the material is now quite comprehensive. The female clitoris is involved, the explanation about that, even the biology, several official biology books are now also telling about the female clitoris and orgasm.

So that's also new. The materials are also quite diverse in terms of explaining something about gender diversity and sexual diversity. So this is about the materials, the extra materials. I mean, the biology books because there are still a lot of schools who are only using the biology book. And several biology books, even if they're now explaining a little bit about the clitoris, they are still not quite comprehensive about gender diversity and sexual diversity.

So, if schools are only using the biology book, I think that is lacking. We need to become more comprehensive in terms of gender and sexual diversity, but some schools do, because we also have once a year in December, Purple Friday, and that is also for primary schools and secondary schools. They can get extra trainings and materials. But on that day, they focus on gender and sexual diversity in their lessons.

So yes, it's possible as schools can have a lot of materials, but to be honest, I'm sure that still the majority of the schools in the Netherlands are not that inclusive in their sexuality education as we hope they are.

It kind of connects to another question I want to ask about what type of approach we can take to teach children about sexuality that can help prevent the some current issues we have such as the orgasm gap? What things we can relate to children that can help prevent that in the future?

To to prevent, to do something about, the orgasm gap. I think that is extremely important. The main principle I have in my sexuality education ideas is that you have to start as young as possible, with everything. You can explain everything at any age as long as you use terminology and words that are understandable for that age. So 'age appropriate sexuality education' for me is a quite fake term because 'age appropriate', what does it mean?

Does it also mean that you cannot talk about porn and sex workers at a young age? Is that not age appropriate? I think that is a big mistake. You can also talk about these these topics, at a young age using simple words and in a very simple positive way to explain these sensitive topics because, for me, that is age appropriate. To explain everything, the age appropriateness is not depending on the topics, but it's depending on the way you formulate your topics.

So the orgasm gap can also already be discussed at a very young age without using the term ‘orgasm gap’ or explaining it as a topic, but, by looking at the system behind the orgasm gap, and the system behind the orgasm gap is all about gender inequality. We know that, it is also what I am saying to my clients when I do sexual therapy. We are as adults, we are educated. Everyone is, until now, is educated with the male narrative, the male narrative on how to have sex. Like what you were saying about the separate classes for boys and girls, that in the boys' class they are explaining the boys how to have sex with a girl.

This is exactly the wrong way. Because then you are going to explain to boys that they have to penetrate to have sex, 'this is how you have sex', and that is the male narrative. We are not explaining this well in some sexuality education lessons, this is not explained to girls. Nothing is explained to girls.

But here in the Netherlands, we explain to girls the same as we do to boys, the male narrative. The way you have sex is by penetration. That is, the explanation in every sexuality education lesson. Even in some, in some sexuality education lesson for the upper primary school, this is the way they explain it. I think we need to discuss this system already at a young age, that sexuality is such a broad concept.

The penetration part is only a very small part of that broad concept that. First of all, sexuality is to prepare yourself. And how can you discover for yourself what you enjoy? And how can you explain this to your partner? That is for me the the most important part of sexuality education. Then you can reach sexual autonomy.

And sexual autonomy is necessary for girls to be able to discover for themselves, this is what I like and this is what I dislike. What I like, I need this and this for reaching what I like. And that is the first first step. And the second step is, 'how can I reach enough self esteem and self confidence to be able to express this to my partner? To tell my partner this is what I want because this is what I like.'

What do you want and like, and how can we reach that together, in order to become satisfied, both of us. And that is completely different from following the male narrative by only following and doing what is pleasurable for a man and not for not always for a woman.

Yes. I think that even with what I experienced with the separation of girls and boys, and I think a lot of people do it like that in the UK, is you're already creating a gender division, and you're already saying to these young boys that these girls are a separate entity from you. And I think that's a narrative that's further emphasised by the porn industry now, which objectifies women too. But I think it's from that moment of separating these young children, you're saying you are separate entities to each other and their equality is already going away.

Yes. completely agree. The professor Ellen Laan, I also started together with her, we started to write a book for teenage girls on this topic. And, unfortunately, this book is only available in Dutch, and it's called, Power Girls. But that's why Ellen, and me as well, we were convinced we have to talk about this topic already at a much younger age. Girls, especially young, teenage girls, they are very sensitive for everything that is said in the media and in the social media.

What is the impact of social media on sexual development?

A lot. A huge impact. Huge, huge, huge.

And it's going so quick also that, nowadays, a lot of really important influencers on social media, without any knowledge, they are talking about sexuality, and they are giving their opinion on social media, on sexuality, to their followers. And girls but also boys, these are the the new sexuality educators. And we, as the older generation, we are underestimating the huge impact of this younger generation on social media.

It's very interesting to see and I think you can do something about that with your website.

That's what I'm trying to do. I think it goes back to what we were saying as well about being divided as a 10 year old in school to girls and boys and that also everything was aimed at male pleasure whether or not it was a sexual pleasure.

Like some male satisfaction somewhere or another and even like masturbation for boys it was, like my friendship group growing up was mainly boys and it was so commonly talked about masturbation from like the age of about 12 they talked about it casually. Girls however, never did. It was like taboo, it was dirty, it was weird. It wasn't till I was like 17, 18 that it even came up and it was like, oh, no way. You do it too. No way. And even then, like, there were lots of people that were like, well, I don't do it because I would not know how at all because I don't know my own anatomy. So that's what I'm trying to do with this, help with knowledge from anatomy to autonomy.

I think it's great.

Thank you.

It's great what you're doing, and I think it's really, really necessary.